Grant Idea - Integrating Zondax Ledger App to Desktop App

Zondax said that they have finished their implementation of shielded support in Ledger HWs. However, Ledger will not release the app unless there is a desktop wallet app that wants to support the feature (not sure why Ledger does not support this in Ledger Live instead).

So, are any of existing wallet developer interested in this integration work?

@hanh Zondax has not responded to your issue on github, right? Can we get someone from ZF to look into this? I mean we don’t want the ZF grant money spent for Zondax be wasted right? cc @decentralistdan

@adityapk00 Is there any talk about this between Zondax and Zecwallet?

@NighthawkWallet is busy with their milestones and are focusing on their Thorchain integration grant, I think.

Cheers!

P.S. If only I have enough crypto skills I would have done this myself :sweat_smile:
My Python + MySQL wizardry is useless for Zcash

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Is the delay because Zondax are just waiting until Ledger decide it’s worth their while to integrate the app natively? Meanwhile they’re busy adding support for 1001 different crapcoins.
I’m not sure why this doesn’t get more focus/priority. With NU5 coming shortly it would be awesome if we could somehow get this supported and work done to support Orchard/unified addresses by January or soon after(if Orchard support on Ledger is possible & depending on the amount of work required).
Would really be something special if we could get this done.
Personally I’d put higher priority on this than other things that get plenty of focus such as Thorchain, but each to their own.

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Yeah, looks like this is not a priority for anyone
:sweat_smile:

I understand the engineers at ECC/ZF are busy with NU5. However, it really puts you down when a bunch of people are pushing for one thing but no one (at position of power) wants to get it done. Meanwhile, the barrier of entry for engineer into Zcash is really high.

If anyone at ECC/ZF reads this, Ledger app is probably the one single thing that all Zcash end users want above all else this year. It has been hyped since 2020 but nothing comes out of it. No update has been given to the community. Not on the ZF grants application site, not in this forum, not in blog post.

Is there anything that the community can help beside cheering from the sideline?

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Meanwhile, the barrier of entry for engineer into Zcash is really high.

That’s a huge problem with Zcash. It seems with other crypto open source projects, domain knowledge isn’t as centralized, and as such, engineers are able to do more grassroots development vs. waiting for things like grant approvals, timelines, etc. There’s a huge bottleneck for ZEC based development right now, and I’m really not sure what will fix it. One idea is to hire more people, but that’s just like throwing more hardware at a scaling issue instead of optimizing the underlying code – the processes need to be more streamlined.

Why isn’t the Zcash foundation board pushing harder to get stuff like this done? When I worked at various tech companies and I wasn’t satisified with the results/speed, I’d escalate to the next level. On paper, the “Zcash foundation” comes across as a board full of industry pioneers and leaders, but I don’t really see any of them stepping up to lead anything. This is a prime example of that.

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@joris although I may share the same frustration, throwing accusation does not solve anything. In fact, it makes things worst as the collaboration and accusation does not well together.

Please refrain from saying these like this. If you keep doing it, I would feel that you are hijacking this topic. My goal creating this topic, is simple:

What can I do as an individual to accelerate Ledger app being released by Ledger and can be used by end users? I was asking for information and got 0 reply from those in power after several days. So, yeah, that is frustrating. :expressionless:

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There was some discussion about Ledger/Zondax in the Arborist call earlier if you were able to catch the call.
Was good to have it tabled even if it can’t be done at the moment.
I completely understand that there’s a lot happening at the moment particularly for ECC with NU5 and with ZF getting Zebrad ready for mainnet in Jan.
Would be good if ZF can include Ledger support when they build their wallet for Zebra(not sure on the timing for this though)

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Great! Hopefully I can watch the recording soon. I was gonna join the call but it’s before 5am in my timezone :sweat_smile:

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I think that all the delays in infrastructure directions this year are due to the fact that Zcash is switching to a completely different architecture of Halo. Once the network is updated, we will see a lot of progress.

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Let’s hope Trezor delivers on their grant
:crossed_fingers:

It feels like this is a lost cause. Especially as Zondax app uses Sapling which surely be deprecated as soon as Orchard were deemed stable on mainnet.

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Yeah if they don’t roll it out before Trezor I’d definitely be going with Trezor and I’m sure most would.
Would be nice if Trezor could take less time than 13 months or whatever the timeline is though.

I’m not sure sapling will disappear so fast.

From an engineering point of view, an API is missing: get nk. It won’t leak any sensitive information but will allow wallets to derive the nullifiers. Without it, they cannot detect spends. It seems trivial but it takes significant work to modify a ledger app. Because it is an embedded environment, you will need to setup their exact toolchain to build.
In any case, I think it is the job of Zondax to deliver a workable API.
Then there is the part about integration. Desktop wallets should be able to use the ledger-rs integration lib but mobile wallets will need to work harder. The USB/HID interface is not recognized directly and needs some platform native code (for Android and iOS).
All in all, it is complicated and I don’t think someone will pick this task in his spare time.
I think it is one of these times when an app is more useful for the public than for developers.

Tbh, I’d rather have FROST finished so that wallets can do multisigs shielded.

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Hey!

It is true that the ECC team has been focused on NU5. It’s the most significant technical upgrade in Zcash history and it’s super important we get it right. I want the wallet live as much as you!

That said, the Ledger issue could be solved by anyone with a wallet who wants to make the integration a priority. Although it’s not performant - I think it takes several minutes to create a proof and I’m not sure if they are still optimizing it - I think it could be integrated into Zecwallet, or maybe even a mobile wallet like Nighthawk or Unstoppable via Bluetooth (not entirely sure). Maybe you can ask them about prioritizing it?

We did speak with Ledger about Ledger Live and there is a process. I believe Zondax knows the Ledger team well and should be able to speak to the process for getting it supported natively within the Ledger Live app.

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Can confirm that Trezor is actively working on adding support.

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This is really a frustrating and meaningless reply to the community members here that is just more goalpost moving.

That said, the Ledger issue could be solved by anyone with a wallet who wants to make the integration a priority.

What I’m interpreting here is: it’s up to the community to figure out. Zondax applied and was given a grant, and when the community members wonder what the status is (after some vague updates), a representative from the ECC says that “anyone can figure it out”. A non-performant haphazard last-mile “integration” doesn’t sound too compelling to me.

Although it’s not performant - I think it takes several minutes to create a proof and I’m not sure if they are still optimizing it

Someone affiliated with Zcash should know this…

Maybe you can ask them about prioritizing it?

Then what’s exactly the point of the Zcash foundation or the ECC if it’s “up to us” to figure out the rest?

We did speak with Ledger about Ledger Live and there is a process.

And? What is that process? What else was said?

I believe Zondax knows the Ledger team well and should be able to speak to the process for getting it supported natively within the Ledger Live app.

Should, could, would… Where is the action?

Can confirm that Trezor is actively working on adding support.

Trezor already confirmed this. Can we get some actual information about the original topic in this thread?

I have reached out to the Zondax team via email.

I brought up the open GitHub issue by @hanh as well as a recent issue on their projects GitHub regarding whether desktop app support would accelerate this process & the work required to support Orchard/Unified addresses.

I asked them to provide an overall update on the project as well as address the above inquiries in a forum post for the community to see.

I will also keep things updated in this thread if I hear from them via email.

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This is what leadership looks like.

Thank you.

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sorry, you’re absolutely right, I will delete

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Thanks, Id like to think the community/ZF/ZOMG would support Zecwallet/Nighthawk/Hanh with funding to get this up and running for users.
Sounds like this would be an option if Zondax action Hanhs Github issue.
Even if it takes several minutes to create a proof many would only be storing on Ledger so would be happy with the trade off

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Thanks Josh, do you know how much if any of Zondax Sapling work would be useful for any future work to support Orchard on Ledger?

Thanks! @joshs and @decentralistdan for the responses

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