@vgm In your opinion, what would be some essential steps to ensure that miners feel better aligned with other key stakeholders? I remember reading that ZF has reached out to mining pools but haven’t heard back from them. Why is that?
@acityinohio@sonya Are there any miners in the Advisory Panel? Would it make sense to include some known ones? Or do you think it’s sufficient that miners have the option to signal their preferences through coinbase transactions? I’m just wondering what’s the best way to be more inclusive towards those miners who are clearly interested in more active involvement.
1.) Miners and Mining pools is/are not the same.
2.) Mining Pools have 0 interest in the dev fund discussion as their commision will stay the same no matter what happens, be it 100% to miners or 20% to a dev fund. This was clear from beginning.
3.) Without a single mining pool participating in the miner signalling there is indeed no voice of any miners represented.
4.) I saw it coming weeks ago that the miners voice mostly won’t be represented at all. With the very limited advisory panel board joining even that door was closed for miners.
Just some personal opinion on what happens, no matter it was clear with the steps taken allready some weeks if not months ago.
If i understand the process correct, they can’t signal anything without mining pools participating!
I think the ECC or the ZF should immediately hire someone to focus on mining and how mining economics will affect any future dev fund. Considering both entities rely on solely on receiving a percentage of mining rewards for their funding it’s actually negligent not to do so.
Known miners on the forum should also be added to the Advisory Panel right away.
@boxalex is 100% correct, mining pools have no interest in the outcome of the dev fund discussion.
@boxalex I understand that. I thought pools were contacted to see whether they’re interested in collaborating to reach individual miners. Anyway, I’m just trying to understand what would be a reasonable path forward to improve the situation, assuming that everyone acknowledges there’s room for improvement.
@vgm Perhaps miners on the forum can start by sharing some credible research/data here.
You are absolutly right with this, it seems the ZF at some time send 1 letter to the major mining pools and that’s it all over from what i got. But as allready explained, the mining pool itself has no incentive or interest to participatge in anything as on their end nothing will change.
The single easiest option would have been to have the ZF temporary having a mining pool where miners at least would be able to signal IF they would like to participate in the miner signaling.
Acknowledging that there is room won’t be enough, there must be a will as well. My personal opinion is that the miners signalling has no priority (to say it diplomaticly) as there is a good chance that a lot of miners would vote against a higher dev fee and they would prefer (short sighted) to have more mining rewards. I have no other explaination why else the least was done towards the miner’s voice and leaving it up absolutly to the mining pools which makes exactly 0 sense.
Don’t 90% of miners mine in pools? I remember when I was GPU mining back in the day you had to join a pool or else never get a reward.
I don’t see any way to get around them, they have to join the process or else it would be a extremely small % of the mining community that would be represented. IE: The % of miners you could get to make the switch temporarily.
If the ZF set up a pool (not as easy as it sounds, and they have no experience running a pool) how many miners would join to mine no blocks? The small pools die quickly because they don’t find blocks. How would you convince huge ASIC farms (which often run thier own pool) to switch to some random pool? They would lose money.
You simply can’t get an accurate picture of mining sentiment by excluding pools. And if the pools are not interested in participating then it’s up to the miners in that pool to demand the pool participate.
If there is a big enough % of miners in a pool who really wants to vote they should pressure the pool to use the OP_RETURN voting to cast the vote for them. If there are enough the pool will have to listen to them, else the miners could switch and cause the pool to lose money.
Or reverse, the ZF should motivate and stimulate the mining pools them to join the process. It’s the ZF’s good idea to have miners signaling, but without a platform it’s obviously worth just … nothing.
That’s on paper, the reality with a huge majority being chinese and russian miners is differently.
I have said it bevor and i will say it again: A chinese miner can’t demand/claim a voting he isn’t even aware about.
How many announcements have you seen on mining pools? How many announcements have you seen/are aware of that are in chinese or russian to make the miners aware? The only place the miner signaling was mentioned so far is on the forum as much as i can say and we don’t have miners at all here.
I have asked this same days ago? Is there even an annoucement in russian or other languages for the miners on the sub sections of this forum? I doubt …
These are reasons why and hence the argument that miners should claim/demand a voting possibility can not hold after they are NOT aware, it’s realy easy and simple as that. Chinese and russian miners live in different language world and having for sure 75-90% of the miners from these countries it needs some efford to reach them out and make them aware, enough it’s a priority to have their voices included in the voting.
Totally agree here, hence i wrote it needs some motivation and stimulation, mostly financial either for the mining pools to join or for the miners if it’s a ZF maintained temporary mining pool.
As said above, this is only valid IF the chinese/russian/whatever miners are aware which i strongly doubt.
Has the ECC with “good” contacts to Bitmain and Innosilicon tried any effords to discuss such voting possibilty and get them to participate as the (mostly) biggest mining operators for ZEC? Any announcements on pure mining forums/sections/news in English/Chinese/Russian? Any chinese members in the advistory panel that could spread the word? Any campaign like the ECC proposal showcase one to signal miners they can vote?
If i remember right the emails to the mining pools was from the 28th august, nearly 3 months ago. Any attempts to look for other ways to get the mining pools on board than writing a simple email that might even not have reached the boss operators?
Come on, this voting may decide 10s if not 100s of millions US$ for funding and a simple campaign or motivation that may cost some 10.000$ to reach miners from all over the world was not doable?
You have no evidence that the China mining pools have not heard/seen the emails /tweets from the Zcash Foundation. Simply because they are not commenting here does not mean they didn’t get the message. As you mentioned, they likely don’t care because:
Again, they can’t demand something they are not aware about. You even quoted my comment but for some reason mess it with the mining pool one for whatever reason.
Please let me know how a chinese miner that didn’t read anything on the mining pool, news, wherever in chinese should be aware of it and claim/demand the possibility to vote. That’s just absurd to await from a person a reaction towards a situation he isn’t even aware off.
If they don’t even read the news from a pool that is paying them what makes you think they would read news that Zcash Foundation put out regarding voting?
What’s actually absurd is your position that none of the miners running or participating in these pools are capable of speaking/reading/translating English.
Ok, let’s make it short as it seems we talk about different things somehow:
Did any mining pool post information about the ZEC dev fund voting?
IF yes and no miner claimes/demands his voting possibility. You are right. Miners vault.
IF no, than there is a more than huge chance that the miners are simply not aware about it.
Feel free to add links even in English on the mining pools where the miners could get aware of the possibility of voting.
However, maybe as NO mining pool is participating as far as i know by today. What are the ZF’s plans to have miners voting, make miner aware of it, make miners able to vote, educate or reach out to miners?
@Shawn what should that poolin interview in the Bitcoin magazine proof? Readed it and couldn’t find a single point that fits into the discussion, what do i miss?
That was the the wrong article, I linked to English instructions that were posted by the biggest ZEC Chinese mining pool to show that as a pool operator they are capable of publishing information in both languages.
Sonya has already told you the steps the Foundation has taken, which includes reaching out to the biggest Zcash pool operators.
I never said or mentioned anywhere that they are not able to publish something in English.
My point was and still is that miners are NOT aware without anything published, be it in English, Chinese or whatever language you choose. There are NO announcements on mining pools, hence the miners are not aware, hence the miners can not force/claim/demand voting from the mining pools.
I’am aware what sonya did so far and that there is no result so far from this single step of emailing the pools once. My main point is the formulating from the ZF side that miners should push the mining pools to participate in the voting process, but as said by now 1001 times, if they (miners!) are not aware of that process they can’t push/force/pressure the mining pools either.
However, i have made my point several times that miners so far are nowhere included by today. Just adding that i see a possible attack vector for the whole voting process if miners until the end of the dev fund voting process are not able to vote.
There is another scenario, miners do not need to participate in the vote at all, they will vote by staying or leaving, because when voting for the option they like, they will leave anyway if the yield is insufficient. Miners vote staying or leaving production (remember the GPU)
Just out of curiousity. I guess that this miner got no information or instructions as by today no mining pool participated in the voting.
I guess we can note the following about the community sentiment collection:
The miner signaling attempt (which was a good idea) failed totally.
From the current voting/polling mechanisms only the ones where the ZF provided the platform worked.
IF the ZF has indeed interest to give miners a voice they have to think about a different approach in future IF they want to collect or have miner votes.
I’am not wrong, nobody from the ZF answered this miners email who asked for information/instructions.
Out of curiousity what the ZF is answering a miner i have sent this email myself and did not get ANY information/reply/feedback/instructions/whatever since than.
The email is sent on “10th Novemeber”, subject: “miner signaling” and the email adress and signature contains “tuk tam”, just for verifiaction.
Sonya, i really like you, even offered my help on this one, but i don’t like if someone is not honest, even less if it’s someone official.
