20% for the club of the millionairs in the first 4 years? Come on we all know they will make a shitload of money without deserving it! I think your investorslist (chnaged form funders to investors, sorry funders you are great) sucks, none of them deserves it! If any, I would prefer to see your advisors and engineers on this 20% list, then you also would not have needed those greedy skanks to support you. I think the idea of ZCash is great but your list of funders makes me not wanna support it. To be honest I hope you will get forked and the list of funders can go suck it none of you douchebags deserves one coin unless you mined it!
Yes before you launch i will promote my fork of your project and start a new chain that will not support your douchbagish club of millionairs with 20% of the mining reward! What do you think people will mine on? #FuckTheMillionairsClub
Glad you've joined the Zcash forum, we're sincerely grateful for your interest in our technology.
Just so you are aware, as noted in Zooko's most recent blog post (https://z.cash/blog/funding.html) regarding the Founders Reward, "10% of that reward will be distributed to the stakeholders in the Zcash Company — founders, investors, employees, and advisors."
We absolutely look forward to any constructive criticism you have. As long as they are expressed in a positive and non-criticizing way, your opinions are very welcome here. Please, if you haven't already, review our current code of conduct below.
Code of conduct:
- We, the moderators, don't discriminate among topics (for example discussion of alternative ideas or alternative projects, forks, etc.).
- We definitely don't discriminate among opinions (that would be censorship).
- We do discriminate between helpful and harmful methods of communication. If somebody is being a jerk and souring the conversation for everyone else, we'll do something about it.
Is there a list of how much each individual of the millionairs club gets (aka the investors)?
Hi! Thanks for writing. We have a policy against personal attacks on this forum, but since none of our investors have yet, as far as I know, joined our forum, you're attacking "public figures" from remote instead of people who are currently engaged in conversation with us, so I think I'll let it slide for now. (However, if Maureen The Moderator comes around and notices this, she might hide your post or something until you can figure out how to call our investors douchebags in a polite and constructive way. )
Three more comments:
You said something like you'd prefer for our advisors and engineers to get the founders reward, and they do! This is a common misunderstanding that almost everyone seems to have: everyone seems to think that the investors are getting most or all of the founders reward. I'm yet not ready to divulge more details about how the Zcash Co is split between the investors and the other founders, but generally speaking, no way do the investors have anywhere near a majority of the Zcash Co. The vast majority of the founders reward is going to the other founders rather than to the investors. I really need to figure out how to clarify this, because almost everyone who has commented on it seems to have assumed the opposite.
I love our investors. I think they are stand-up people who have done a lot of good and continue to do more, and I'm proud to be associated with them. All the investors out there who I didn't feel proud to be associated with, we didn't take money from! I don't expect you to agree with me, but I just wanted to put that out there.
I would love it if some people would fork our code, use our protocols and science papers, etc. The more the merrier and the sooner the better. I don't know if you're serious about putting in the blood, sweat, and tears to make it happen or you're just mad and you're letting off steam, but if you, or someone else reading this, is serious about making a variant of Zcash, get started! Time's a-wasting. We are continuing to move all of our work into the public under permissive licences so that there is no barrier to you re-using it.
No I will not register there to read something that should be public
If everybody gets it wrong with who gets what, maybe it is not everybody's fault but only yours for not communicating it right to the community. And yes I am thinking of forking it if I think the millionairs club gets to big of a share. If ZCash reaches 0.01BTC, which it easily could, 10% is a hell lot of money and I would consider to fork it, otherwise people will wait for the whales to sell their coins and everything will be messed up.
Yeah great investors, seem to be very interested in the mon.. ehh I mean the project. I love them already!
I apologize for the titles I changed funders to investors!
@TrashMan all the very best with your fork, it's a shame you cannot get it launched of your own accord before Zcash, do you lack the necessary skill set required to build it yourself?
I feel this is one of those occasions that what you decided to share should have been kept to yourself as it is neither constructive nor of any use to absolutely anyone.
While we sincerely appreciate your participation and contribution to this forum, ad hominem comments like this won't be tolerated. I will have to delete your comments in the future, if you continue to use rude and confrontational language like this.
Thank you for your understanding and cooperation. Let's keep this a positive and constructive discussion board please.
@squawka I just don't want the same thing happening to ZCash that happend to ethereum, Vitalik announced a while ago how much Ether the foundation had left and then the price skyrocketed because everybody was waiting for the whales to sell out. It just sucks. I have nothing against the members to have a set amount of ZCash from the beginning, no problem. But I and many others think it sucks that the millionaires club gets richer and richer by investing early while others had no chance to do so and most people don't want to support the millionaires club. Thats why the price will get stuck and people will hate the coin until the whales sold their coins. And yes I will fork the coin when it gets launched if I feel like it. And if enough other people fell like the fork is more fair than the original, than we will reach consensus on that. #WeWillReachConsensus
@memymo delete my comments as you wish, I understand this is the internet and some people are over sensitive, however I would argue I asked a genuine question about their capabilities in relation to completing such a project. In no way is that a personal attack. I was making a valid point which has clearly coaxed out a more reasoned post from @TrashMan which I appreciate much more as it is clearly more conducive to a structured conversation on the matter at hand.
With regards to the millionaires club comments, while everyone wants a piece of the pie and those with riches are often in a position to make yet more money, I feel you are failing to see the positives in their contribution. They already have money, they are taking on a great risk by backing such an unproven development. They could have taken the easy, much lower risk approach to growing their own wealth, yet they chose to give their backing to an extremely risky project that will provide much more to the world than a simple investment in gold would have done. Yes the rich get richer but you cannot develop projects like this within an acceptable time frame without significant backing.
Could you please provide to us a link to this announcement by Vitalik?
How do we know the insiders did not sell to themselves and have (intentionally) created a deception which caused P&D fever?
An ICO sold into the free market would be preferrable, so that you founders take your cash and the coins are widely distributed, so that no one has to fear that the insiders will dump their coins.
Problem is that is impossible to prove whether you purchased the ICO from yourselves jacking up the price (even you can take out a loan to do this). Similarly it is impossible to know if you've taken cash or coins from an ICO.
So it seems this problem has no good solution. You've opted instead to take the coins over a longer period of time via mining, perhaps to convince investors/speculators that you can't dump the coins early. Also this enables you to get coins at (hopefully) higher prices in the future. Problem is that afaics (IANAL) this will force all miners to register as Money Services Businesses with FinCEN to avoid being an illegal money transmitter since the miners are transfering value to a third party. Also this puts your company in danger of being classified a controlling entity w.r.t. to Howey test which requires you to register all the investment securities (i.e. the coins) with the SEC. We have asked you (in your AMA and also on this forum) to respond to this legal issue and have received no response yet.
I have suggested that instead you focus on receiving investment in your company as experts on this technology. And target working with Open Ledger and others who are attempting to make block chains for the corporate market. Because the big win for Zcash is not for the masses, but for enabling privacy for corporations using public block chains (because firewalled block chains are not secure and they ameloriate the reason to use a block chain). The use of anonymity by the masses is fraught with meta-data issues that are basically insoluble. Anonymity is mostly a technological dead-end for the masses. The coin that will be marketed to the masses (I am working on that) will be focused on microtransactions and instant transactoins, scaling, and mass adoption markets in social networking. That is not, can not, and should not be the focus of your work. You could still release a Zcash for everyone, and make it a fair distribution where everyone can mine, same as Monero did. However, it is sort of silly to waste all that investment on electricity (one of the distribution, technological, and marketing issues I am attempting to solve with my work). And still the coin will be distributed to those with the most mining chops who invest the most in electricity and leasing hardware. So again I suggest perhaps you just do a public ICO if you can manage the legal issues.
Another factor to bear in mind is that the sober reality that crypto currency just doesn't work may eventually come to pass. It is much better to take some of your return on investment asap just to hedge your speculative bets. Do not delude yourself into thinking this is a sure bet, even though you have great technological progress.
Seriously you need some better marketing advice. You have the technological capabilities, the business chops, but who on your team has been a VP in marketing at a major software company? Try consulting for example Steve Guttman or someone who can help you not make a huge blunder in your marketing strategy (which impacts the decisions about R&D and the funding model).
To 99% I do not agree on your statement(s)! I think we share 2 different visions where this should be going.
Why do you think mining is more fair than a premine? What is "fair", anyway? Mining puts tremendous amounts of the currency in the hands of the early adopters, is that "fair" to late adopters? Is it "fair" to give more of the currency to miners, as opposed to investors, inventors, and maintainers?
I think your point about whales causing people to not to want to adopt is true, ultimately I wouldn't want to see a lot of the currency sitting in the hands of a few holders, but does distribution through mining really help achieve that end? It's rumored that Satoshi has around a million bitcoin, after all.
I'll post this here since there are a couple different thread discussing this topic now. I see that I am one of several people concerned about the funding issue. It looks like people are realizing that this is really important. I will add however that we (those of us with dissenting opinions) should try to be civil. It is impressive to me that Zooko will allow us to talk so openly about our criticisms of his funding structure on his forum.
I really hope that a better solution can be found. There is an interesting discussion of this on the zcash reddit by the way. I made a couple points and Zooko responded.
I just would like to say that I really respect the openness and candor that Zooko has shown so far. It seems that this really is an honest difference of opinions and philosophies.
That having been said, I haven't been convinced by Zooko's arguments so far. If it came down to it (and I would prefer that it didn't), I guess I would be one of the people supporting a fork to a system that didn't give such a great deal to early investors in a closed funding round.
I added my point there just now which is critically important and is being ignored by Zooko.
Wow. This is quite a lot to chew, and glad that you brought it up. I'd be interested in following your work and learn more about what you have discussed here, and possible solutions. Your contact?