A Path Forward for Ledger and Zcash

Ledger support for Zcash is broken and needs to be fixed. For years, users have encountered ongoing issues with Ledger’s Zcash integrations. One recent incident, where funds were stuck on Ledger devices, led Binance to suspend ZEC withdrawals because they couldn’t move funds from their cold wallet to the exchange, which in turn created major price discrepancies across exchanges. While that issue has been addressed, other problems persist. Transactions with shielded inputs from Sapling or Orchard still can’t be processed, and despite two separate ZCG-funded grants, there is still no support for shielded transactions in Ledger Live. This has understandably caused frustration and anger throughout the community.

But abandoning Ledger isn’t the solution. Much of the problem stems from the fact that Zcash support has historically been handled by third-party developers, not the Ledger team itself. Ledger is one of the largest hardware wallet providers in the crypto space, used by both retail and institutional investors as a secure, reliable way to store their assets. For many, it’s the only acceptable custody solution, and they expect ZEC to function just as seamlessly as other supported assets.

Over the past couple of weeks, we’ve been able to get Ledger’s attention, in large part thanks to Zooko. He shared a number of community-reported issues with Ledger’s CTO, who brought in other C-level executives and lead developers to review the problems and begin working toward a solution. Since then, we’ve established a direct line of communication with the Ledger team, and Zooko, Pacu, and I have been working with them in a shared Signal group to test fixes and provide feedback. We have their attention, and the focus is now on establishing a long-term solution. To that end, Ledger has indicated that they are open to taking on direct support for Zcash.

ZCG believes a direct partnership with Ledger would improve how feature development and long-term maintenance are handled. Relying on third-party developers has been challenging. A direct partnership would create a shorter feedback loop to ensure issues are addressed more quickly and effectively, and better align incentives around long-term support. It would also create clearer lines of responsibility and make it easier to hold the right teams accountable when issues arise.

Ledger has privately acknowledged the issues affecting Zcash users and apologized for the shortcomings in their support. They value Zcash’s mission, are aligned with our values of privacy and freedom, and want to play a more active role in supporting the ecosystem. That’s a good start. But turning that into a successful partnership requires more. There must be a clear, public commitment to improving support, beginning with an acknowledgment that past efforts fell short. Going forward, Ledger should make it clear that Zcash is a priority, not an afterthought, and take concrete steps to resolve the outstanding issues and deliver the level of support the community expects.

Next week, Zooko and I will be in Dubai for Token 2049, where a friend of ours plans to introduce us to several potential investors who are interested in acquiring significant amounts of ZEC. For these investors, strong Ledger support is a requirement. They aren’t willing to store funds on Keystone devices or in mobile wallets, and they don’t want to hold transparent ZEC. Ledger is the hardware solution they use for their other holdings, and they expect the same level of support for Zcash. This is one example that illustrates precisely why strong Ledger support for Zcash is essential.

ZCG hopes that the community will support a direct working relationship with Ledger as the best path forward. Relying on third-party developers or intermediaries has not worked. Long-term support must come directly from Ledger’s internal team, with clear ownership and accountability for maintaining and improving Zcash functionality.

Thank you,
Zcash Community Grants

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I agree with this, a direct partnership seems the only way forward, and true ledger live shielded support would be a massive win. A couple of questions though

  1. Ledger are “open” to developing shielded support, what would it take to get them over the line and commit? Ledger’s track record of stringing the community along for years is very poor (I’m picturing that toy story meme “I don’t want to play with you anymore”)
  2. Is the work completed in the keystone easily portable to ledger?
  3. in a partnership where will the engineering resources come from?
  4. what would be the financial requirement from the ZCG treasury?
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These are all great questions. I’m going to ask Ledger to respond to them directly here on the Forum so the community can hear from them firsthand.

Regarding question 4, Ledger is currently working on a draft proposal and will likely share an initial version with the ZCG committee for discussion before submitting a formal proposal. I’m hoping we’ll see that version by the end of this week or early next week.

I’ve had some initial discussions with the committee and with Ledger, but we haven’t fully fleshed out the details yet. That said, my personal view is that the Zcash community should not be responsible for covering the cost of fixing issues that caused users’ funds to become stuck.These problems have been outstanding for too long, and Ledger should address them because they care about providing Zcash users with a reliable and safe experience. No one should have to deal with not being able to access their own funds.

I think feature development, such as adding shielded support in Ledger Live, should be eligible for retroactive funding. I’m also open to exploring a long-term support and maintenance agreement, but I’d like to better understand how this is structured for other projects that Ledger supports directly.

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Fantastic job !!
Finally we got their attention

Shielded Ledger :star_struck:

Before this question goes further, let’s clarify a few points:

  1. How serious is the whale about buying ZEC — is it a genuine intention or just a joke? Buying ZEC can happen anytime, anywhere, why wait until after a meeting to consider it?

  2. Does this whale not have a team to do their own research (DYOR) on ZEC?

  3. Specifically asking to use Ledger makes the financial team seem unprofessional.
    Apply for funding to implement transaction shielding shouldn’t be a high priority.

  4. It’s better to wait until the buyer actually puts money down and purchases ZEC before taking it seriously.

  5. ZEC doesn’t need a whale who only knows use Ledger.

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A truly working (and reliable) Ledger app could be really useful for future multisig setups.

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Some time ago we ran a small survey on these forums to know how the community felt about Ledger. We got 25 responses. It’s hard to poll privacy-minded folks, so I consider these answers given the forum activity, a decent baseline.

For the initial question, 22 responded they did have funds stuck and that they meant a lot to them.

Surprisingly 17 out of 25 owned two or more ledger devices!

while 2 hadn’t decided at the time, only 5 would continue to hold their funds in Ledger devices, and the rest would move to other options like Keystone (most of them), Trezor, Exchanges, Self-custody hot wallet, cold wallet)

I’m not putting the details to respect our anon’s anonymity MORE.
image

Now when asking about Net Promoter Score:

Would you recommend Ledger to a friend to hold Zcash?

at the time these anons respondedn the were not likely to do so (17 of 25)

Crossed questions

These ask the same in opposite ways to deambiguate language comprehension issues

Ledger partnership relation with Zcash

From 1 to 10 indicate if you agree with the statement “I believe that Ledger hasn’t been a good partner to Zcash”

From 1 to 10 indicate if you agree with the statement “I believe that Ledger has been a good partner to Zcash”

Shall ZCG allocate funds to contribute to fix the problem

From 1 to 10 indicate if you agree with the statement “I believe that ZCG should allocate funds to contribute to fix this problem and have better Zcash support”

From 1 to 10 indicate if you agree with the statement “I don’t believe that ZCG should allocate funds to contribute to fix this problem and have better Zcash support”

Is there a chance of reconciliation?

We asked if people would reconsider their opinions if Ledger provided better support for ZEC from now on.

From 1 to 10 indicate if you agree with the statement “I would reconsider my opinions if Ledger provides better support for ZEC from now on”

We observe there’s a 17 of 25 agreeing with this statement in with a 7 or more.

I will put this on a spreadsheet format as well to further analysis if needed.

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5 posts discussing polling in wallets were merged into the existing topic: Announce Polls in Wallets

Here is our official support: https://x.com/zcashbrazil/status/1915440478301868496

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Thank you @aquietinvestor ! I strongly support this effort and believe that it’s essential to the long term growth and success of Zcash. I expect that Ledger shielded support will significantly increase the shielded pool size.

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I will be blunt: I would not store my funds in a Ledger if you paid me the value of those funds.

I believe the priority should be on getting all users’ funds out of Ledger and into other hardware wallets.

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I agree with some fundamental difference. I believe that the priority is to get all Ledger users that have ZEC on their devices the ability to choose to do this without needing to restore their seed phrase into another wallet. This means that Ledger engineers repair the broken functionality since NU5 as the stepping stone of a new path forward.

Honestly, I believe this new path forward can begin to be built only after these known issues which started years ago are resolved and ledger customers are given back their original initial conditions for which they accepted to be Ledger customers.

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I understand what you mean. The thing though is that many people own several cryptocurrencies. So they might have bought a Ledger wallet for Bitcoin or Ethereum already. Then after some time they show interest in Zcash. Who says they are going to invest in Zcash if they need to buy a new hardware wallet for it?

People with deep pockets can do so but for normal people this can be an issue.

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I don’t think deep pockets is the right expression, but handling the self custody of different hardware wallets separately is cumbersome and hard to do. I understand people that would like to own just one for convenience.

EDIT: Although I recognize the mental burden it carries and how privileged one needs to be to do proper self custody, I wouldn’t recommend just putting all the eggs in one basket. Always try to diversify not only wallets but their vendors. Even a close call incident would have left you with almost losing it all if you just store all your assets with the same backup scheme, wallet, brand etc.

When it makes sense economically, add redundancy to your custody schemes folks!

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The real question is why did Ledger abandon Zcash. I think their “response” to this will mean more than any virtue signalling.

Make privacy normal again Ledger, the world is watching.

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IMO, they didn’t “abandon” Zcash. Keeping up with Zcash protocol is a demanding task. Something got broken a while ago and they didn’t have the knowledge / resources / interest to fix it.

It seems that it is not an easy fix. It looks like it requires deep understanding of both the Ledger Live code and the Zcash protocol.

Besides, they are not the only one. Block explorers and several multi currency wallets are in the same situation.

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And whales are comfortable using a company that doesnt make this a priority?

I am hopeful a solution can be found but these questions should find answers.

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That’s a good question. I would have expected Binance to have a ZEC cold wallet that does not rely 100% of Ledger. :face_with_raised_eyebrow:

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ZCG, I strongly advise collaborating only with entities that have a proven history of supporting the Zcash ecosystem, while offering consideration to new entrants with potential. However, avoid partnerships with teams like Ledger, who have consistently overlooked Zcash users for years—on multiple occasions, no less. It’s telling that Ledger only began addressing Zcash support last month, reportedly after complaints from Binance.

If Ledger could show they can support Zcash users reliably for at least 1 year, only then should ZCG consider working with them and offer grants specific to Ledger apps. FYI, there are still some ZEC on Ledger that Zcash users can’t spend.

What do you think they’re smoking over there at Le Marais?

Also, a reminder that Binance is a company worth billions storing trillions of clients’ money. I bet my whole ZEC portfolio they spend more dime on the lawyers that advise them to put ZEC on monitoring tags than on their whole crypto custody setup.

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