The Forum that Could Be

Also don’t feed in the trolls + don’t ignore the real questions, which are generally upvoted :slight_smile:

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I think the nitty gritty detail of the weekly/monthly updates is great, especially what you post in the newsletter. The only problem with what gets posted here is the fact that its often only posted here.

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I don’t think I understand, can you elaborate?

I’m referring to the ECC and Foundation weekly updates don’t seem to get much distributing on social media (ie: Twitter, Reddit, Facebook, etc), or maybe they do, perhaps I just miss them

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I link to them on Twitter and usually on Reddit as well, but they don’t get a lot of attention. If you’re regularly on Twitter, you see a lot of the individual items as tweets anyway.

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That’s for sure a wrong impression many have than. Maybe due the languae non-native language barrier? No idea, but comparing myself with a majority of the hardcore line posters i would say i’am even the one that agrees most often to discussion opponents, even like their posts, enough it’s good argumented.
In my opinion no such thing as ever be right excists, thoughts, action, details, arguments, facts, etc. change which should lead often to a change of an initial taken position.
Often it’s playing devils advocate play, like the “increase the monetary base” proposal. It’s an valid option, i’am defending it to some degree but not because i want it to happen, but because it’s interesting to have such proposals and to see indeed what the community thinks about such option and how it reacts to it, including the foundation and ECC. I advocated POS in the past as i saw it as a solution to create an incentive to hold ZEC and to counter inflation. It didn’t work out, but it was worth fighting for it in my opinion, no matter it had about zero chance.
No idea, but i can ensure you it’s NOT that everything has to be like i want it, but this shouldn’t as well mean to question, ask, discuss short or long why a given thing is done that way and not another way.

So does the tone of the bullish posters. Just be sure that there are more bullish posters than bearish ones. I just lack the possibility to say great if i’am convinced a given move/call is a bad one. I can’t make a bullish price prediction if every single calculation i make points to an bearish BTC/ZEC outcome this year. And last not least but maybe most important, bullish or bearish just reflects the Zcash/ECC/ZF performance all over.

Actually i have not really much time, it may look like that but i don’t have, i take the time from breaks and other tasks, doesn’t matter much anyway. But yes, i try to think always about the other side as well, it’s one of my personal principles of fairness to try to understand the motivation/intention of the other side and if needed, to excuse myself. Maybe this is exactly what i’am missing from the ECC, they make their point/move/call but don’t think about how the community reacts to it.

I really honor and appreciate this comment. I can speak only for myself and it’s going to be longer, you know but i will take the time:

  • ECC is in my personal opinion too technical focused, partly the foundation too. I know, that’s their main work, that’s where they are experts and outstanding specialists, no doubt. But to have a good product you need more than only high tech. It hurts, how nearly to nothing is done to counter inflation, stabilize price at least to some extend, that nothing is even tried, damn, not even discussed. It just hurts that such non-action even hurts the current ECC funding while there are literally 1001 possible legal honest moves possible. Why not make a workgroup/forum group with people that have ideas, why not involve placeholder and the other VC’s? The inflation the next years is serious and there is no other option than having a short-mid term bearish view if nothing is done by nobody that lowers supply and/or increases demand. And i underline here, nobody is talking about pumping or similar intervention, but actions, improvements that have or at least could have an impact on price/demand/supply.

  • Community involvement. There are a lot of people here and outside the forum that have a lot of ideas, a lot to bring in. Even a lot of people i often disagree have good ideas. A good idea, thought or argument is just that, no matter who makes it. Just involved the community more. There is a community governance panel that could be used for sooo much polling, researching the community streams, upfront checking how the community would think about given actions, non-actions, upgrades, importane of different roadmap targets and the list goes on and on. This community panel is such great instrument, no matter it’s not binding, that someone can only wonder why it’s not used at least every 3 months.

  • Founders Reward. This one really bugs me and i know many others as well. It’s not that the founders get a big amount, that’s perfect. But it’s that the ECC and Foundation at the end of the founders reward even didn’t get half of it if my estiminations are correct. I know it’s a hot potatao topic and nobody wants to touch it publicly, but i don’t think the distribution is good designed to say it diplomaticly. A good move would have been, prior to the whole dev fund discussion if there is reall good will shown and the distribution voluntary be changed for the good of the ECC and Foundation. This would have signalled way more than some “All-in” slogan, this would have build up again trust, would have shown that the guys are behind Zash, this would have been such a great effect that i’am pretty sure many that oppose an extension of a new dev fund would have changed there mind. There is no way someone should be bullish when several activities by the ECC are cut, while in general there are enough funds available from the FR, enough the other recepients would be fine with 25% for example from now until the end.

  • Transparency: Especially in the current new dev fund discussion i awaited way more transparency. I awaited that the ECC, even the ZF would improve upfront transparency and yes, while the ZF transparency can be seen as ok there is still room for improvement. But the ECC lacks a lot, this transparency report afford was ok, but all over nothing special either, but more the introduction for the dev fund discussion. That’s why i really like the Non-Profit option for the ECC. The fact that the ZF itself isn’t aware of many aspects in the ECC just underlines that there is transparency missing. If the ZF doesn’t know a lot of things, what’s left for the average joe and jane? I’am not sure about others, but for me transparency is especially important, too many scams have been around, Zash gets such accusations on twitter as well daily, people should know what when with how much funds happen, especially with a new dev fund.

This got again too long, just making some short points: simple road map, work on something real innovative that makes Zcash again outstanding, make researches on what people think which directions/researches/innovations/feature Zcash should have. The whole dev fund process is a mess if we are honest, immediate improvement should be taken place. Include some damn roadmap for what funds are needed into this discussion, Even the placeholder guys need allready weeks for making it ready, what’s left for average users like me and some others? Honest talk about money and funds, it should not be handled like a tabu. More open discussion on possible improvements of Zcash and more involvement of the ZF/ECC in such. That’s it for now, too tiered to think further …

This should be maybe a content for an extra topic where not only me shares their views what could be improved but many others as well. Without the opinion of other members mine is absolutly worthless anyway.

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Thank you for this response @boxalex , I think a little understanding on everyone’s part can go a long way.

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I have a suggestion which might help, its meant constructively.

Your posts are really long & give the impression you want to dominate a discussion - maybe try keeping them short & see what happens?

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Bob, maybe you as an native English speaker or English with degree speaker are obviously able to do so. Actually i tried to improve it and it works on some not that important matters, but somehow it never
works out with posts where a lot of thinking of mine is involved.

But i will try of course, it’s not in my interest as well to have something written with 10.000 chars if it could be written with 2.000, that’s a lot of time i loss as well.

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“But they don’t attract a lot of attention” is what needs to be changed, nobody is interested in these ongoing updates or a simple continuation of the work when the work as a whole is not visible, if you publish it as part of the process indicating the prospects (anticipated) and the dates, then there will be more interest, specifically about I said this when I clarified the dullness of news and lack of marketing, the product is simply not interesting, it needs to be changed small, to attract interest in its development process, this kind of show should be exciting and promising.

I’m sympathetic to the ESL thing. I have been trying to write comments with that in mind… but I’m not very good at it. Practice will help, I hope!

It sounds like what people want is an echo chamber, not a forum. A place where only positive things can be said as to not hurt anyone’s feelings. Using @boxalex as an example, is the problem with his price predictions are that the are bearish or that he has been right? I can’t recall anyone else predicting zcash falling to 0.005 - 0.0055 BTC before end of the year but here we are.

@ChileBob wants to create a “members only” club that you can only use if you hold zcash. That is a great ideal until a person shows up and wants to ask questions before jumping in and getting his feet wet. So now since they can’t ask their questions, they move on to some other project where they can voice concerns about what they might be getting into.

@joshs suggested a voting system where posts could be down voted so that they can be given less relevance if the down votes out way the up votes. . That allows mob mentality to rule. Just get enough people to vote the the way you think and the comment doesn’t disappear but get push down enough that people don’t pay attention to it. Or just create enough dummy accounts to do it yourself.

Progress is usually an outcome of conflict. It starts off with an individual or group saying " I don’t like how this is done", or " We think there is a way to improve on this". What people are suggesting is the opposite of that process. That is not progress, that is stagnation which leads to decay and death. Why was Zcash created for in the first place? Because someone was dissatisfied with the way the financial system was and gathered enough like minded people to come up with an alternative way to fix the problems that they thought needed fixing. An echo chamber can not do that . It can only encapsulate itself in the ideal of perceived perfection.

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Isn’t that exactly what I did? :wink:

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No, your suggestion is the precursor to closing out dissenting opinions. That is how these things start. If you want more positive comments and replies, then start by aggressively promoting your product in a positive light instead of trying to figure out a way to silence debate.

I’m not trying to hammer you but I have seen this happen before and this is one of the ways it starts. The most evil of atrocities are often born from noble ideals.

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Actually, I was thinking about a ‘members only’ category that would exist alongside the public groups but I agree with your point. Private, closed & insular is a bad thing.

I’m also thinking on ways to connect a stratum proxy to the forum so that miners can prove they are actually mining by mining… but that’s something for another day.

Edit: Could probably connect things to github activity so developers can earn a developer ‘badge’ as well.

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Is that your understanding of Josh’s intent? I certainly don’t think he wants that.

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That’s not at all what I am advocating for. If that’s what comes across, I communicated poorly. The Zcash community is full of dissenting opinions. It’s challenging, invigorating and beautiful - for that reason. It’s the best thing I’ve ever been a part of.

My concern is with tone, respect, attempted narrative control, and intentionally sowing seeds of misinformation. My belief is that the community can be more welcoming and inclusive to a broader set of people.

But today, in my opinion, the forum does not reflect the Zcash community I know. So I raised the concern. What are better ways to improve it than what I threw out there?

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I like the idea of a rotating educational thread of the week, for learning from each other and sharing resources. Some topics off the top of my head:

  1. self-custody
  2. how to judge the trustworthiness of exchanges, wallet providers, and other software or services
  3. the other tools we use to stay private and secure digitally
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Make the function of registering on the forum through the zcash wallet possible as an option with your own incentives, this is a necessary development of technology and ideology. If the technology will work, registration will be useful along with google or with the help of a social networks account.

I am sorry @joshs , but that’s what I read too.
I myself got a nasty taste when I read your story.
In my opinion Zcash is like a coin that can not be compared to any other, that’s why I am here.
Not for the money, since I lost a lot, and still don’t hold a crouch. It’s all in the game, but I myself read your first post as an attempt to silence those who maybe right, but don’t fit in your story.
Censorship and Zcash in my head don’t fit in the same sentence, and yes, I myself can and was critical too at some times, but not to slash Zcash, just to get some answers on how to make things better. I believe that most on this forum have the best interest in Zcash and it’s survival.

And thanks to the mods, It’s still a nice place to be. Their effort is what keeps this going, despite the difficult choices they once in a while have to make.

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