20 x 1 h/s … woooooow … better open another zec wallet hahaha. My granny had a better hash rate
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They are a registered company so there are another (add number of goverment employees here)
Edit : too much drama
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I guess in the end you are right, it was just a thought experiment. Hopefully people will now understand that when a GPU algo hasn’t been touched by somebody like Claymore, there is a potential for dramatic improvement. And still this isn’t always the case. The GPU miner shipped with the release of ETH was never improved much further than 10-15% tops (@wolf9466 private kernel) and it took about a year to get there. Looking at what is happening right now with Equihash, I support @tromp 's Cuckoo Cycle bounty fund even more. While it’s fun for the devs to have an arms race like this, it’s ruining alot of peoples investments. Then again, the profit has to come from somewhere 
This looks like it is too complicated for Toomim to calculate despite the elaborate python scripts and high level mathematics he attempts to employ. Probably what got everyone into this mess in the first case.
_perfect miner with 1 H/s would have earned total 0.0017693052 in first 96 hour_s x sale value on the exchanges is the only true compensations.
Take for example Kraken @ 10-28-16 21:35:39 -05:00
Order sell 0.00792000 ZEC USD @ limit 12000.00000
$95.04 [ less fees]
This is a real order I executed on October 28th, the day of the launch. Not 96 hours later, and only using a desktop CPU and free miner.
Toomim wants to
give 20x that or 0.0353861040 ZEC for each 1 H/s that we promised. A
customer who ordered 100 H/s from us should have earned about 0.177 ZEC
during the first 96 hours; we will give them 3.54 ZEC.
That’s wonderful however 3.54 ZEC today [ or in a ‘couple of weeks’ as Toomim puts it ] yields exactly at today’s rate [ $105.10 ] a whopping : $372.05 total.
Where if we take the contracted and paid for rate expected at the time of: 100 H/s from us should have earned about 0.177 ZEC during the first 96 hours calculate the sale price at the time it yields a genuinely whopping: $2124.00 total
So you can see what is up here, this elaborate mathematical bullshit that failed everyone from zero hour to today continues. Huge calculations, Python script writings and tweaking and all manner of formulae to impress everyone and it amounts to jack shit. Hey, and the numbers above quoted are not even 12 hours after launch even. Toomim is trying to drag this out past 30 day consumer refund policy in the state of Washington. That state is consumer protection friendly as they come. You bought something, handed over money for it, and did not receive what you were promised. Nothing more nothing less. All these elaborate calculations mean nothing. As has been pointed out Toomim is not qualified to adjudicate this at all doesn’t matter how many hours they were awake trying to solve it or their best intentions were put forward, or how they think they are going above and beyond “compensating” everyone" in their unqualified minds. People expected one thing and got nothing in return.
The only people who can solve this correctly are these people:
https://fortress.wa.gov/atg/formhandler/ago/ComplaintForm.aspx
throw these guys in as well for good measure
https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/#&panel1-6
Serious what Toomim proposes is nonsense and he knows it. Its farcical to everyone what was involved in this, in fact, this elaborate mathematical scheme of Toomim’s and self announced most generous bonus of 20x the amount only will come into effect 2 weeks forward. And what will the price of ZEC then be? half of what it is today, a quarter?
I see that the lead plaintiff in the GAW Miner’s ponzi class action is a regular participant on this forum. If anyone is familiar with that scam from yesteryear, this class action is blazing forward at a rapid pace and looking more in the plaintiff’s favor as the days go by. Perhaps he can step forward and introduce his crack team to those that are not satisfied with Toomim’s elaborate “compensation” package. But I don’t think it necessary. An arbitrator, or a local government official from Washington’s AG office if enough complaints are received should solve this once and for all.
What is being offered voluntarily does not come close to doing that at all.
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Did you also take into account that price for 1 ZEC was @ 3000 BTC during a couple of hours the first day and peaked at around 9000 BTC per 1 ZEC? Of course you are compensating your custommers in BTC then. Otherwise the compensation is completely pointless.
The above numbers are from Poloniex what people actually paid for ZEC the first days.
In my compensation offer, I stacked the cards in favor of the customers in every way except for the exchange rate. I included the 3x bonus even though I have no obligation to. I started the compensation from block #1, even though we only promised to start our contracts on Oct 28th, and did not state the time or block number. I ignored pool problems. I gave a 20x bonus on top of that.
However, I did not use the wild zec/btc exchange rates. There are a few reasons for that.
First of all, it’s not legally justified. Asking for the value in BTC if you had exchanged your ZEC for BTC immediately would be classified as “consequential damages” or “indirect damages”. Consequential damages need to have been forseeable by both parties at the time the contract was struck. (See the section on Hadley v Baxendale here for a reference, or this for a more readable source.) When our customers made the hashrate purchase, the Bitmex futures for ZEC were around 0.04 to 0.08 BTC per ZEC. At the time, in the Zcash Slack channel, those Bitmex futures were viewed with a lot of skepticism as being implausibly high, given that the estimated price from the Founders Reward contributions was around $14. I will be interested in hearing arguments for why any of you think that both of us could have forseen a 10,000-fold higher exchange rate, or even a 100-fold higher exchange rate than the Bitmex futures. A 10 BTC/ZEC figure is equivalent to a prediction that Zcash would eventually be worth $197 billion, about half as much as the annual US military budget. (Not bad for a team of around 10 engineers in San Francisco, eh?) The 3299 BTC figure is equivalent to Zcash being worth $48.49 trillion. That’s 2.5 times the USA’s national debt, or 6 times the value of all gold ever mined. I think a court might find that the Bitmex future price is the best that we could have forseen at the time the contract was made. It’s worth noting that the current exchange rate is actually about 2x higher than the Bitmex futures from when our contracts were made, so if the court makes this determination, you would get about 40x less than what I’m offering on that basis alone.
Second of all, the exchange rates were wildly variable, and would have made any calculation extremely dependent upon the assumptions used. For example, if it were determined that our Oct 28th starting date would be satisfied by beginning at noon, that reduces the total BTC revenue by 97%. If we assume that the sales would have been made an hour after the ZEC was mined, or 4 hours after the ZEC was mined, or a day after the ZEC was mined, it makes similarly enormous differences. Given that we did not promise to start mining at 9:18am, I don’t think it’s fair to demand that we compensate our customers at the ridiculous prices or the incredible (but predicted) short block times of that time.
Third, most of our customers were initially using a pool (suprnova) that wasn’t making normal payouts during most of the first 24 hours. Many or most would have been unable to take advantage of those extreme exchange rates, and would have gotten an exchange rate around $2,000 or less, which is … hmm, 20x the current exchange rate. (Note also that I’m offering this 20x multiplier for all revenue, including revenue that was made during hours 24-96 when the actual exchange rate was lower and the slow-start block reward was larger, and for which we were actually delivering most of the hashrate we owed our customers.)
Fourth, it’s easy to argue in retrospect that of course all of you would have sold everything you had when the price was at 3299 BTC. However, the truth is that many of you would have been waiting for it to go higher. Even after 24 hours, many of you would have been waiting for it to go back up. Trading on markets is a gamble. Saying that you would have sold your ZEC is saying that you would have gone to a casino to play roulette, and of course you would have placed your bet on 15 black.
The offer I gave is for a lot more money than customers would have gotten if they believed in Zcash’s future and were holders, or if we had delivered in an acceptable fashion on our contracts starting in the late morning or afternoon of the 28th. Overall, I think it’s a pretty reasonable offer. As far as I know, the offer is also for a lot more than my legal obligation would be under contract law, so if you’re thinking about this from an adversarial perspective, you may want to take into account that you will probably be awarded far less than you’d get if you take our offer.
You are a clown.
“Many or most would have been unable to take advantage of those extreme exchange rates, and would have gotten an exchange rate around $2,000 or less”
This is BS, if you mined on suprnova you would be able to sell at an exchange rate of 20,000 $ + , don’t make me actually prove this.
“Fourth, it’s easy to argue in retrospect that of course all of you would have sold everything you had when the price was at 3299 BTC. However, the truth is that many of you would have been waiting for it to go higher.”
More proof you are a clown.
Stop feeding people shit.
You left yourself open with this compensation package covering a 96 hour span. There are direct verifiable damages as a result, that is from from 0 hour up to and including the 96th hour. Price line recorded for all to see and many that were able to make an exchange successfully within, quoted here and elsewhere for all to. So none of it is a surprise or a guess or a future prediction at all.
Whatever price was at zero hour [ 1 million or something insane ] price at + 4 hours [ 150,000 or whatever it was ] price at + 12 hours [ 50,000 ] etc etc whatever the real numbers were all through and up to 96 hours after the start. All recorded all known by you even at the time of trying to get it operational. No guess work back then versus today, that is for sure. 14 + days later price of 105 today versus your proposed repayment scheme to kick into effect 2 weeks in the future, is the only guess work out of all of this at play. 50 dollars down the road x20 bonus or 3 ZEC if you had 100 H/s contract?
Again compensation must include price line from 0 to 96 hours x expected hash rate within that same period. Juggle the numbers outside of this will not work. 100x modifier after 30 days on the expected hash rate between 0 to 96 hours simply cannot work.
Compensation can only be for all of this within that time frame you were down. Hash rate owed, exchange rates at that time. Whether people cashed out, were delayed cashing out, pools were broken, exchanges were down, anything and everything else doesn’t matter. People where cheated out of the opportunity to a) receive the hash that they paid for from the 28th October and on wards and b) the ability to take what they mined as a result and do with it whatever they wanted to at the time (transfer to an exchange to cash out, even try to cash out, hodl on the exchange etc etc.), is up to them. Not you. You simply cannot erase this important aspect of the transaction of the service you were contracted to provide.
Like I say you’re most definitely not qualified to make this determination, and I know I am not either at all. That is why it needs a professional to intervene before it gets ugly which I fear it will. The the math whiz in the world and computations and scripts cooked up, will not make it go away. Over this 96 hour period what should have been paying customers product had value and now it does not.
Someone posted here at the time their success with some other mining co, using the same pools as everyone else and how they got started on time, cashed out their small amount at a reasonably high price a day or two later. That should be the bench mark. Anyone who even mined direct might want to chime in with their results of mining from day one, their hash rate and what they cashed out to on the 96th hour.
Has anyone in fact received a BTC refund from Toomim to date? Where is this the guy, the most vocal of them all suddenly gone all silent? Profile - eastwind_ja - Zcash Community Forum
The original sale pitch in the news articles and videos specifically stated that the hashing power was on hand for all of this and that the funds received were not needed to buy the equipment in order to provide the service, that is, all GPU’s were already there bought and paid for since “April” I believe, and funds coming in were not financing this at all. So why the hesitation in refunding everyone immediately when this all failed. Its not like it was a 10 glitch, or even a 24 hour failure, you’re talking about 4 whole days. The absolute most critical time of it all. To come up 30 days later with a handful of worthless coins under the guise of some powerful computation and incredibly clever programming, and sugar coating it all with a monumental 20x bonus still amounts to shit. Here 30 days later take this now shitcoin and we will give you a whole lot more of this shitcoin so be grateful. From a small pile of shit to a free bigger pile of shit.
Seriously, you need to get someone independent to review what you are doing and what you are offering before to actually try to do it. If the legal mumbo jumbo is from some flunky lawyer you have on retainer of course he will tell you, you are right and everyone else is wrong. If every lay person on this thread can see this for what it is, can you imagine how some one with independent binding authority will see it if need be.
You guys need to come to a much better solution with your customers than this, whether it is a partial refund in BTC + added hash power for the remainder of their contracts or whatever but to throw out a handful “extra” coins with a yet to be determined price 2 weeks in the future it nuts and will not fly
Up to you.
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Jtoomim you are wasting your customers as well as your time. Just overcome that greed in you and refund to everyone you will sleep well at night afterwards. Continue with your mining farm with claymore miner and still profit. Basically your secret mining software is not worth a penny now cause claymore mentioned he is already hitting max limit and his speed is already 3 times ahead of yours now. You just dont have anything else left to offer.
max limit? how come optiminer is getting more now?
and optiminer 0.30 was getting the same resulots as claymore with a 15% dev fee ontop
so isnt there at least room for 15% more improvement???
The funny thing here is that almost everybody who is still complaining is not a customer. The majority of our customers are satisfied with this offer and with our service. However, we have quite a few bystanders (including you) who do nothing but complain.
Not true!
I’m 100% no customer is satisfied by your services, but most are just lurking this thread since our voice is clearly represented by the people complaining here.
I would also like a full refund in btc, would happily send you every piece of zec i mined so far.
I’m sure by now with the hardware you bought by selling cloud-mining you already made enough profit.
You could consider it a loan with zero interest and just refund people.
Even if they are direct damages, direct damages also need to be what a “reasonable, ordinary, and prudent stranger would expect at the time the parties entered into their contract.”
Our contracts were specified to start on day 0, not at hour 0. I offered twenty times the ZEC that would have been mined from hour 0, but I am under no legal obligation do to so. I do not intend to offer the BTC that the first few hours’ worth of ZEC could have been traded for in the first few hours, as those numbers end up being ridiculous, and no reasonable stranger would have expected anything close to them, even if that time had been covered by our contract.
We have just started to install it. I forecast it will reach ROI in about 6 months. So far, 0 of the GPUs we bought with the revenue of the cloud mining sales are online and hashing, though that should change over the next few days.
I’m basing this on email replies I’ve received. So far, of the replies I’ve received by email, we’ve had 6 positive, and 1 negative. It seems that the negative comments are more likely to be made in public, and the positive comments are more likely to be made in private.
At least you will reach ROI, most of us will make at most 10-15% of our initial investment.
LE: I’ve payed 3x the amount i payed you (for a 3 mo contract) for zeropond services and got more than 10x the hashpower (for 1 year)
It’s a shame. I was thinking to purchase a contract just because I could mine the first few hours - would be ROI. Infact, I made over 5 btc renting hash from nicehash for 0.4 btc first few hours. You are full of shit toomim.
It’s not a good idea to buy a 3 to 12 month contract with the intent of only using the first few hours, especially if the first few hours are not explicitly covered by the contract you are buying. The intent of our contracts was to be a long-term offer, not a short-term offer. Nicehash is clearly the better option for short-term contracts – that’s what they designed their platform for.
Full disclosure: We started mining ZEC to our own wallet for the first time on Saturday, with about 200 H/s for the first day.
We are in the process of migrating from our old work allocation system (which could only be used with our own miner) to a stratum-based work allocation system (which could be used with silentarmy or possibly optiminer, as long as it supports extranonce.subscribe). We have moved 10 of our rigs over to silentarmy so far. We had a lot of crashes at first, so we had to make some configuration changes. As of yesterday have 2,400 H/s of excess hashrate in addition to the 8,300 we are delivering to our customers. So far, we have earned about 0.6 ZEC.
The new allocation system should provide smoother hashrate allocation as well as allowing for the use of mining software other than our own. We’ve been working on it for a little over a week, and I think it’s pretty close to being stable enough to deploy.
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