TREZOR Founder and CTO: RIP Zcash

It’s not a tax unless you’re forced to pay it. For example, the Founders’ Reward is not a tax because you don’t have to use Zcash. You could analogize Zcash to a nation-state, but that’s a stretch IMO.

1 Like

To stretch it in another way, just out of fun and not that seriously. Income tax isn’t a a tax because you don’t have to work at all if you don’t want… Or your car tax isn’t a tax, nobody forces you to have a car …

1 Like

I know you mentioned it is for fun, but still it’s not a good analogy:

You have plenty of similar projects out there that are not with the FR feature.

You can’t go out here and buy something similar to a car (please don’t say bus or train :slight_smile:) that won’t ask for a similar tax,… ( if that pops out, he country I’m in will tax it pretty fast :slight_smile: )

Same with work …

1 Like

Yeah, it was indeed pretty for fun, lol. However, as a non-native speaker i look sometimes up defininations. Maybe this one is more serious how tax seems to be definded widely:

tax

noun, often attributive

\ ˈtaks \

Definition of tax

(Entry 1 of 3)

1a : a charge usually of money imposed by authority on persons or property for public purposes

b : a sum levied on members of an organization to defray expenses

2 : a heavy demand

2 Likes

Miners invested in ASIC equipement, where can they go?

Husband hits wife. Can she leave? What about money, children?

Easy to say “opt-in”. Same asTrump, “if you don’t like it, leave”

Reality is not simple!

Dev fund is a tax. Redistribute miner reward. Socialism.

Free market can provide funding. Business, investors, community. Proof? VC already invest in Zcash company.

Maybe dev fund fans are scared to find out the truth.

I’am not going argue about the tax definition as i made my comments more as some fun factor but this argument isn’t entirely true as the equipement is bought after someone is aware of the “tax”/fee.
It would be as you say IF you buy first the equipement/hardware and at a later point a tax/fee gets added that did not excist bevor.

As said, i’am neutral on this topic.

They buy ASICs believing promise of no more tax in 2020.

1 Like

Yes that’s right, however don’t you think the dev fund is a worthwhile investment for miners?
If not why?

If they like, they can make it.

Voluntarily.

Big difference from tax.

They can grow up and realize that ROI on capex is never guaranteed. No risk, no reward — and the risks are real. That’s life.

However, if we institute a new dev fund, personally I would prefer for miners to be able to ROI on their machines before October 2020.

Semi-related note: For a PoW coin to be secure, mining needs to be profitable. But it doesn’t need to have great margins.

The difference here is that she is being prevented from leaving. That’s what abusers do; they isolate their victims and make it hard (both emotionally and practically) to escape.

Zcash doesn’t do that. It is very easy to stop mining ZEC, sell your ZEC, etc. If someone tries to guilt-trip you about doing so, you can just… ignore them. The situation is entirely different.

(You may not be able to cover your losses by selling, but again, that’s what investment is — accepting risk in exchange for the chance to generate alpha.)

Moving to a new country is orders of magnitude more difficult than exiting ZEC. I don’t think the analogy is fair.

Here we fully agree :slight_smile:

I don’t understand how a system that is fully voluntary can be compared to socialism.

I’ve been thinking about this also, and you may be right. I made a comment about that here: Future of Zcash dev funding — megathread / everything in one place

2 Likes

If you mine Zcash you do so voluntarily , nobody is forcing you to mine. Everyone can see what the code is, if you don’t like the code then you are free to mine another coin.

2 Likes

It would be nice to hear some/more opinions from miners.

3 Likes

Agree. I doubt there are still many here in the English section, but maybe you can find some in the china and russian sub-forum here…

if miners had a huge problem with new devfund - hashrate should be crashing. not happening!

3 Likes

Im a hobby miner, you should be able to glean off how I feel about it by reading my proposal
I don’t believe you when you say that you invested in zcash mining equipment because you thought the dev fund was going to end soon because
A. that’s a negligible cost you really don’t lose that much in doing it and
B. there are already ways around it so…if thats your reason you should really research more before investing

Makes no sense.

New dev fund, maybe end of 2020. Why turn off ASIC now?

Keep mining, keep selling. As long as there are profits.

2 Likes

What other coin is using same algo?

If you want new tax, new dev fund, you can voluntarily make new coin.

This doesn’t make sense. As i made a lot of mining and electricity cost calculations in the past it isn’t working like that.

First of all it doesn’t make any sense to turn off the asic 1 year ahead, don’t forget currently all miners are mining and paying a fee that was clear. Nothing changed at the moment and there is no evidience that every new miner or added hardware to the network is allready aware that a new dev fund is planned.

Second. The mining hashpower won’t be affected by a new dev fund anyway. All that happens is that miners that currently mine at a minimal or small profit in higher electricity countries and regions get forced out of ZEC mining business, while at the same time these get replaced by miners in low electricity countries as these can with (for example) half of the electricity costs can take a bigger decrease in mining block rewards than these that pay for higher electricity costs. Means the hashrate chart is not representing anything at the moment.

Let’s be honest made, when we both for example than back bought our Z9 minis (i think we than back bought them nearly at the same time) we haven’t been aware of an extension of the FR or invention of a new dev fund.

There are othe coints that can be mined on the same algo. I made a list (no longer updated) where you can see all coins mineable by asics on equihash. As i don’t mine my own anymore i have no idea if some of them are still profitable or not.

Most miners don’t even partecipate with the community.
Most miners care about profit.

If hashrate is steadly growing it has absolutly nothing to do with any type of interest in the dev fund: don’t be so naive kek! It has to do with new asic available every 3-6 months and the price of such machines going down.

Bitcoin has the same growth in hashrate and new asic have been coming out regularly (almost every month) and prices have decrease on these machine.

For ethereum you can see hashrate has decrrase with market crash and has been picking up lately due to many gpus being sold for cheap. Mining rigs used to be for sale at thousands and now literally for scraps. If you correlate ethereum hashrate with 1080 ti prices you’ll see a very similar curve.

1 Like

if miners don’t like the new fund that will happen - they’d be going elsewhere. this has been going on for over a month now… zcash hashrate will not dip. will continue rising, that’s how life is.