Update to the Zcash Contributors CoC

Everything offends everyone at some point. We are better off respecting differences and not get offended by everything that comes along. There is no going back to civility once you go too far down this road. It ends up creating more hostility as we are witnessing now. Turn the other cheek. Maybe when someone offends you it wasn’t their intention to do it?

It is especially difficult on the internet since we don’t really know each other. Just because someone gets triggered it is not the fault of everyone else in the world to make you feel comfortable. It is a really selfish viewpoint that everyone else is here for you. Some people need to get over themselves. If you have past hurts you need to find a way to deal with them and heal them.

If someone posts something without the intent to hurt or inflame and they are basically innocent and someone comes along and yells at them for it who is the bad person here? Isn’t Zcash supposed to be
giving economic freedom to everyone and not just a few special groups?

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We’ve seen intent, unfortunately. I agree with you although we must be vigilant … we only have two cheeks!

I do not believe this to be an accurate representation of the change to the COC.

I feel like this is our Zcash Rodney King moment and I am going to say it: “can’t we all just get along.”

Everyone, let’s focus on our support and belief in Zcash and the financial privacy it can bring to all. In the end, we have far more in common than we don’t.

Peace and Zcash.

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Hi everyone - I want to chime in with my perspective as part of the forum moderation group:

I do not believe the proposed CoC update sets an “impossibly high standard” for participants on the forum. I appreciate the need for clarity on how and when these rules apply outside of the forum. I don’t really monitor activity outside of the forum, twitter, Reddit and occasionally telegram. I certainly don’t have the ability to moderate activity on anything outside of the forum.

I believe moderators are allowed to have differences of opinion and I do not believe that moderation decisions require unanimous agreement. I trust the other moderators to act in the best interest of the Zcash community. I feel that recent mod decisions (I am assuming these are the same ones that secparam is referring to) were handled appropriately and in accordance with the CoC.

The spirit of the CoC has always been to “foster an open and welcoming community” where everyone is respected. The proposed CoC update feels inline with that objective. I would suggest removing “right-wing extremism” from the proposed CoC update since that is the only mention of a political position. Everything else in the second bullet point fits within my understanding of “examples of unacceptable behavior.”

I strongly disagree with the notion that this is “another nail in the coffin of the Zcash community.” These discussions are important to have; avoiding them will not foster a welcome environment especially if we hope to grow this community.

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@mistfpga thanks for bringing up your concerns on the Zcash contributor CoC change. I really value your contribution to the community, and I believe we can address your concerns while also agreeing to a code of conduct and cultivating social norms that meets the goal of “fostering an open and welcoming community”.

The first and foremost idea I’d like to impart is that establishing healthy community norms is an ongoing process and discussion and will involve disagreement. That’s just the nature of the beast. So the Big Picture™ is that Zcash community needs to be able to respectfully and productively disagree, then come to some consensus out of that.

No amount of policy tweaking and language lawyering can make up for that big picture issue.

I also want to say that if I’m hearing you correctly I share some of your concerns. At the same time, I appreciate the need to call out dog-whistles when they occur, and I support this change to the Zcash contributor CoC as a way to clarify the kind of norms I’d like to see. So let’s keep iterating on those norms and sharing/working through concerns.

Here are a set of distinct concerns I heard from @mistfpga, please chime in if they’re inaccurate or need rewording:

  • Naming specific categories of harassment / discrimination may introduce a bias (ie allow other kinds of harassment or discrimination to become implicitly condoned).
  • Identifying examples of “unacceptable behavior” which don’t require knowing intent is problematic (ex: dog whistles).
  • The scope of the CoC obligates contributors to enforce the same norms everywhere they represent Zcash, but other contexts/communities may have different established norms.

Are those the core concerns?

I agree all are important concerns.

The only one I have a suggestion for at the moment is the second: by just establishing a norm that moderation actions are proportional to the infringement. This allows “unknowing / no-intent” infringement to still be cause for moderation, but that should be proportional.

So for example maybe an appropriate response to an obscure dog whistle might be a moderated comment removal with a link to the description of the dog whistle. By contrast posting a well-established dog whistle fits pretty well into my definition of trolling. And here when I say obscure or well established, I mean to this community specifically.

This doesn’t seem onerous or extreme to me personally. I’m curious for @mistfpga or others who are concerned if this “rationale w/ proportionality” norm assuages any concern about that second point?

The other concerns are worth further discussion. The third scope issue is super important for me, because I see a need for Zcash to have multiple partially overlapping and partially disjoint communities as required to reach global adoption (and indeed Zcash already has that with very different fora, different language communities, etc…). So I want to encourage that kind of decentralized social adoption. At the same time, for the dev community I directly engage with “natively” I definitely want well established norms that foster inclusivity and collaboration.

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It was done as a statement of fact, rather than as an accusation. This is not my response, I am still too angry to address this in a reasonable manner.

x is racist; mistfpga does x; therefore mistfpa is racist. ← this is the accepted method
x is racist; mistfpga does x ← this is what daira did to my posts.

This is a lot more insidious. It does not give me a direct accusation to respond to because the accusation happens in the readers mind. I really hope this was not intentional because this is the setup for a kafka trap.

Normally I would just ignore this. but due to dairas authority within the forums, ecc, CoC process and more generally their renown and standing in the community at large, I have to take this very seriously. This sort of thing can ruin lives. This thread is already losing its context, and in 6 months people could easily walk away thinking im some kind of racist or enabler of racism.

for future readers: I did not post pepoClown/honker to the forums, nor any other space. Another forum member posted it in response to a post I made that they thought was crazy and did it to call me a clown

My lived experience is not a right-wing talking point, please do not belittle or invalidate it by call me right wing for having been the victim of left wing ideologues.

I am not using anti semitic memes, your source is tainted. Please dont call me an anti-semite or a white supremacist.

I have not used anti semitic memes, please do not call me an anti-semite and a racist.

No it is not a racist or anti-semitic. Please stop calling me a racist and an anti-semite.

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We share the same goal. I am very vocal about being open and welcoming - even when it is towards people or ideas I disagree with.

  • This policy gives the person who is responsible for responding to CoC concerns far too much power and provides no oversight to that power.
  • This policy specifically removes intent and therefore context from being allowed to be considered when judging violations. (this is a red flag as to why this change has been included, not just the change itself)
  • I am deeply concerned about what is going to be used as arbiter of what is and is not allowed. (please see the end for why clown world is not racist.)
  • This policy takes away my agency, something which is essential to build a community and forces me to become an activist.

Sort of. The very existence of this amendment scares me this is giving the enforcer of the CoC too much power over non zcash stuff.

Lets make this clear, I would never tolerate anything I know to be a dog whistle, or anything I feel might possibly alienate someone.

What happens if I refuse to ban people saying clown world in chat? What about if I refuse to call out other players for saying clown world when there is a clown fiesta, during my or their hearthstone streams?

I had to have a very uncomfortable conversation with my head mod yesterday, he is Israeli and lives there. He also plays competitive hearthstone and engages in saying clown world and clown fiesta. I am lucky he is a good friend and I have known him for a long time.

I cannot imagine what he would have said if I had responded to him the way daira responded to me. Because I play competitively, moderators completely control the chat whilst I concentrate on the game. (none of my mods are English as a first language, and all are located in mainland Europe or asia.)

Milk, Pepe, the OK symbol, 420 (hitlers birthday), all have to be cracked down by this CoC update. None of which are racist, they are 4chan trolling the left wing media into taking innocent symbols out of circulation. where as 1312/ACAB/All Cops Are Bastards is allowed context.

This standard is impossibly high.

From the rationalwiki reference on “honkler” used as evidence supporting its racist origins. - even their evidence disagrees with them.

I need more than this to call someone out for being racist.

From rational wiki’s reddit reference:

From rational wikis reference, 4chan thread declaring “honkler” an invention of the alt right. (censorship my own. )

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I think it would be helpful for the CoC to be modified so that posts complaining about specific moderator actions are not allowed. Take it up with the moderator(s) in private so that the community can move on, or go to a different space with different moderators and leave us alone. We’ve decided, by participating here, that we trust the moderators to use good judgement and the forum is not a place to litigate the actions they take. Otherwise, this forum will be countless threads of trolls complaining about being “censored” or suspended.

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I am not sure i fully understand

Which CoC are you talking about? the forum ones or the zcash community ones? this thread is specifically about the zcash community ones, not the forum ones.

I started this thread not to call out anyone, but to engage in the discussion that daira stated they were preserving the evidence for.

Is this aimed at me? I repeat my post was not the post moderated in the first place and I was starting the discussion about this modification of the zcash community CoC.

I really like that idea - it removes all the attention/amplification that trolls crave, improves signal-to-noise, also inevitable as the forum grows so makes sense to start now.

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I think an important clarification needs to be made.

The ECC is free to make whatever changes they want to their “Contributor Code of Conduct” which it appears they have done on thier GitHub.

It’s been known as the “Contributor CoC” for some time and I think calling it the “Community CoC” is confusing because it could refer to the “Zcash Community Forums” CoC.

The ECC making changes to thier Contributor CoC does not automatically change the Zcash Community Forums CoC.

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fair point. I was directly quoting from the mod edit. I should have changed it. I will update the title.

It’s not just your post, a few others have been using the two interchangeably, which I think is adding to the confusion about what CoC is being discussed.

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Yeah, i changed the title, and put an italicised statement in the OP. Hopefully this should help - feel free to change it for clarity.

Honestly, there should just be one code of conduct for Zcash which applies equally well between the forum, the subreddit, and our repositories. This is how many other communities function.

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I agree, but that would also involve considering input from all of those different communities when a change was made. Some (like Reddit) have very different standards than others for what is acceptable.

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What @jmsjsph said, we can easily just challenge a narrow minded opinion.

Privacy as a human right would also suggest we could find a more appropriate medium to share controversial opinions than the Zcash community forum.

I definitely think 1 or 2 people on here are “clowns” as @kek says but I am not trying to stimulate that kind of dialogue in this community, mostly out of interest of preserving the intellectual “flow” that developers want to keep up. Its not going to help the development of Zcash for me to ad hominem attack on the zcash forum, regardless of my opinion or the level of freedom of speech.

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Thankyou. The problem here is not with moderators who give a shit.

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You’re misunderstanding. The change to the Contributor CoC disallows these memes without making any assertion that particular uses of them are racist (or anti-Semitic, homophobic, etc.) That’s the whole point. It wouldn’t be possible, or appropriate, to accuse people of being racist because they use such memes. Nevertheless they must stop using them, because doing so helps racists, and harms the people originally targeted by them by making the Zcash community a more hostile place for those people — regardless of whether that was the poster’s intent or whether the poster agrees.

It is utterly unproductive to have an argument here about whether Clown World “is racist”. It’s pretty well established that it is an alt-right meme designed as a dog-whistle for white supremacist and anti-Semitic views. Whether that’s the case for any given “language or imagery” is a judgement for the moderation team, not for the person who posted it.

It seems as though some of the people complaining here would have wanted me to coddle people who post dog-whistle memes by saying that we’re never accusing them of being racists. But that might not be true in some cases. In general, some of them will be, and sometimes obviously so. The Contributor CoC shouldn’t say anything about that, and it doesn’t.