@daira I’m pretty sure your miss-understanding.
Everyone seems to agree, at least now, don’t post racist memes. And at a minimum, If you unknowingly post one, thats bad. Try not to do it in the future and the moderators should take them down. Beyond that, things get less clear.
There are two objections flying around here
that you called @mistfpga a racist for posting ---- unknowingly he says —a racist clown meme.
This isn’t technically true. You never said he was a racist. But every single thing you have said really comes off as you simply don’t care if it was an accident or not. Which as a technical moderation decision about taking down the meme, sure, but moderation has a human element that comes in on what you say afterwords. The idea is to build a community here. By repeatedly, as you do above, doubling down on how unambiguous it is that the meme is racist(which no one is really disputing anymore), you really do give the impression that anyone who posts it is knowingly doing so and therefore a racist.
Can we acknowledge its possible to post these things accidentally and that maybe ,maybe, we should (while removing the content) assume the poster meant it innocently. That at least that approach is worthy of consideration?
that your interpretation of the CoC puts un reasonable obligations on people to moderate channels they operate else where. (and implicitly they should be as aggressive as you are on this which is … too aggressive)
I stand by my point that this is too far and should not be the CoC for this forum. Indeed, the ECC contributor CoC is not exactly the same thing as the rules this form operates as @Shawn points out. And it’s not even clear to me this interpretation is shared by others.
TLDR: no one is defending racist meme posting. They don’t want to be made to enforce the same heavy handed rhetoric you have taken here in other channels they are responsible for. Its possible your approach is justified, but the debate is no longer about if the meme is racist.
When I accuse someone of racism, you’ll know about it because I won’t beat around the bush.
I am “aggressive” about combating fascism because it directly threatens my life, and that of my family, friends, and community. I’m not exaggerating, and I won’t apologize for being right.
Someone accidentally posting a meme that they didn’t know was associated with white supremacy is not what happened here. @kek knew very well what it was. @mistfpga is still defending its use, contrary to your claim that “no one is really disputing anymore [that the meme is racist]”. What am I supposed to think about that?
I always did acknowledge that it is possible to post these things accidentally (although frankly, its meaning and origin is only a Google search away). But why should we “assume” anything about intent? We don’t need to. We just need to remove the content, regardless of intent, as I’ve been arguing. And it seems people are wilfully ignoring what I’m saying because they just don’t like the way I’m saying it.
@daira Yes, I know you and I realize if you were actually accusing someone, it would like massively different. But most people don’t. Perception matters
And the way you say these things matters. Re-reading the entire thread now, it appears there is a bit of a side debate on if using some clown meme is racist. So ok, now I see why you kept doubling down it.
None the less, doubling down on it is bad. It still as the same effect of accusing the posters of being racist. And that implicit accusation of racism is what keeps fueling this stupid argument. Because now, to argue you aren’t racist, you have to actual the clown meme isn’t racist. There’s no out. So this keeps going.
So instead of giving a way to deescalate this by saying.it becomes an escalation mechanism. Because instead of focusing on preventing even accidental posting of this stuff, we end up focusing on that its racist.
And incidentally, it seems the ambiguity of the meme is precisely meant to draw these kind of debates and erode the credibility of moderation.
No, people can change their position in light of evidence. They have that choice. (And by the way, the wording I’ve used to describe the meme was very deliberate. I didn’t say it “was racist”, I said it originated as a dog-whistle for white supremacy and anti-Semitism, which is objectively true).
Which is why the change I made to the Contributor CoC was necessary, and why the forum CoC should be changed in a similar way. We can’t have this debate every time, it has to be settled policy.
Not when that feels like admitting you’er a racist. Thats not how human psychology works. Thus the importance of being explicitly clear it can be accidental and we’re not inferring intent.
How’s that change going for you? I see a whole debate that has stopped this from dying. I think it would have been a lot easier if the CoC change looked more neutral and avoided the obvious debate that was going to follow. And that change probably should be made merely to make this go away and maybe enhancing some peoples perceptions of fairness even if you and/or I think they are erroneous.
The whole point of the Contributor CoC change was to not require intent, because intent is not what does the harm (and, specifically for dog-whistles, is impossible to prove).
How much more clearly can I say this?
At this point people are repeatedly attributing things to me that I’ve never said, and reading things into the new CoC wording that are simply not there, even after I’ve clarified multiple times.
I remember in grade school, when I misquoted religious history on purpose to be humorous. Obviously some laugh and some didn’t think the joke was funny. The kids who didn’t think it was funny, constantly harassed me for the rest of my duration of education in that city when I was just trying to make a joke about religion.
Its not humane to harass anyone for any reason regardless if you agree or disagree with their opinion, they are entitled to the freedom of expression in my books.
While people ask for PM to moderators about this drama, I appreciate it going public so I can really see the true face of those involved, that way I can censor my opinion when there is snowflakes in the room out of respect for my peers who appreciate a good “flow” of information, it will be easy to see who the incel is and on the contrary those petty enough to sink down onto the incels level and proliferate that dialogue to others through the medium of a reflection of duality.
Disagree if the standard for changes to said communities’ CoCs are a suggestion by one person, ACKs by two, and adoption in a matter of hours sans discussion.
Thank you for finally giving me something i can falsify.
Note: I am not standing up for keks right to post this stuff on the forums, that is nothing to do with me.
I am defending my right to moderate the spaces I control and inhabit outside of the immediate zcash community in a manner that is appropirate for that community.
Does anyone else find it strange the the zfnd does not automatically have to accept this code of conduct, but my twitch channel does? Which one represents zcash more?
anyway,
Yeah, crazy isnt it, but here we go again.
There are four places that claim they have the authoritative version of this, they somewhat agree. The knowyoumeme article is the best sourced and linked.
Rational Wiki, debunks its article with its own sources.
KnowYourMeme, (not linked but you can google it to falsify my statements)
Note: that the feb 11th is a full year after this had already been in circulation within but not limited to the LoL (league of legends), TFT (Team Fight Tactics) and Hearthstone communities.
A lot of sources incorrectly identify the feb 11th post as the original post. It is not, these sources are tainted. (like the next one from urban dictionary)
So please tell me how am I meant to continue this conversation without calling someone, who is clearly not an anti-semite, an anti-semite?
me: you cant post the Clown emoji in chat, it is racist and anti-semitic.
my semitic mod: lol wat?
me: Im not joking, its a hate symbol.
my mod: Lol, you know it is from league?
me: yes, but you cannot post it.
My mod: lol, posts a clown emoji in chat
me: mate you are an anti-semite.
my mod: lol, no i am not
me: … what do I say here ?
This is akin to me calling a black person racist for using the n word.
I am under no illusion that daira is directly calling me a racist, but in a very weasel way - “If you dont stop this on your channel you are a racist.” - Kafka Trap L (list at the end)
Daira, people are not asking you to coddle anyone, they are asking you to “do your research”. How you are meant to be the arbiter of this when you do not do this? yet insist a “simple google search” proves your point. I did that, and it does not support your assertion Please provide evidence to support your claim that also refutes mine.
No, I am not. I know what the intention of the change is. However it does not do that.
How do you reconcile these two statements?
Twitch Community guidelines - This does what you want but in a non invasive way, and takes into account of actions off platform.
Just for good measure, here are the kafka traps, please try to avoid using them
as @BostonZcash has pointed out, this is a massive failure of process.
I feel I should back up @mistfpga here. I did the suggested google search, came across similar sources, and also didn’t conclude that clearly Clown World has anti-semitic origins; but rather expresses a general feeling of wtf is going on in the world. I can’t help but think of the censorhsip of criticism context.
Clown analogies have been used for years to allude to incompetence and ridiculousness “they’re acting like a bunch of clowns” ect.
So I think more than ever we need the ability to express the feeling of - what’s going on is crazy. I doubt the Jews that died in gas chambers under a fascistic regime, would be happy that their tragedy is used to justify fascistic restrictions on what language can be used.
Thank you for doing the research @arielgabizon. I really appreciate it. This is a very difficult subject to talk about.
I feel my name has been cleared and in future people will hopefully be able to see the context.
@daira I know it was not your intention to call me a racist, it was a by product of how this conversation developed and the personal nature of the subject matter. I hope you understand I could not let it go unchallenged.
For me I now consider this matter settled.
I am sorry it had to happen in public, but the accusation (even though it was not directly vocalised) happened in public, so I am grateful I was allowed to defend myself in public.
I have expressed why I think the CoC amendments are wrong. I will wait to see if there is a statement from the ecc or zfnd about this update and what it means, then go from there.
I am a member of the Zcash Foundation’s Community Advisory Panel (ZF-CAP) and a long-time supporter of the project since it was first posted to the BitcoinTalk forums in the form of the ZeroCoin proposal. I strongly concur with mistfpga’s concerns regarding heavy-handed moderation of the developer forum.
I’ll go further than @mistfpga did. Not only does the proposed CoC modification fail to achieve the stated objective (“inclusion”), but that objective itself is misguided and harmful. Like the rest of you, I want to cultivate a community forum where everyone with an informed opinion can participate, and this is achieved with a much weaker norm which I’ll call passive non-exclusion: Like the 1st Amendment, we shouldn’t make any rules concerning any particular group or viewpoint.
It’s fine to ban the most harmful trolls - the ones whose presence is so disruptive as to make productive discussion significantly more cumbersome - but beyond that, there is no need to police the forum to make it “safe” for the most easily-traumatized snowflakes. This is the internet, where bits can’t hurt you and your personal thought bubble is just a click away. If people can’t handle what they read, they can take a minute to pull themselves together and return when their emotions are less overwhelming.
Finally, a note on dog whistles: Who cares? The existence of secret signals between bigots (or those with other abhorrent viewpoints) is bad for the world, but a technical forum about a software project is not the most relevant place to tackle that issue, and an intentionally opaque/covert signal is not very disruptive to our purpose.
This is yet another example of the recent proliferation of ineffective, virtue-signaling codes of conduct on internet forums which do more to divide the community than bring them together, and I hope that the Zcash community has the foresight and the wherewithal to nip this fad in the bud.
This thread is regarding the Zcash Contributor Code of Conduct maintained by the Electric Coin Company at:
Please direct further discussion of the Zcash Contributor CoC to the Zcash GitHub repository.
As has been noted before: the Zcash Community Forum CoC is separate from the Zcash Contributor CoC. If there are questions regarding this forums CoC please feel free to post here on the forum under the “Meta” category which is for site feedback.
