Zcash has a FUD problem

The Zcash Community Grants Committee is working on creating a “Global Ambassador Program,” which in its first iteration will be focused on growing the Zcash community and driving user adoption. If the program is successful, I hope we can eventually expand it to cover things like social network moderation. You’re right, being an administrator can be both time consuming and exhausting, and require significant effort. Compensation would incentivize community members to become moderators and reward them for their work.

In the meantime, I would love to see someone submit a grant proposal to police the various social networks and be assigned with an “anti-FUD role”. I’m not speaking for the committee, but it is something I would support. The attack vectors discussed in @joshs’s thread on Information Warfare are often used against the Zcash community, and I think we should make it a priority to better defend ourselves.

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It’s unfortunate of course that this is happening, but in the long run, and given the traceability of Monero, this is a losing strategy.

Here is the dilemma… “Turn the other cheek” or “the best defense is an attack.”

What were they thinking when they decided to do it?

Let’s move on to Halo + Unified Addresses. And after that, when there are no arguments left to attack Zcash, I will willingly participate in a retaliatory FUD attack. Probably it will be very un-Christian, I’m sorry. But it will be fun.

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I have nothing to add about what we should do or if we should do anything, but I do want to concur that I’ve seen a lot of incorrect/misleading — and in many cases probably dishonest — FUDs against Zcash over the years.

As a semi-aspie “Accuracy Maximalist”, seeing people say false things just makes me super uncomfortable. It makes my brain itch. But, about a year ago I gave up on my long-standing practice of arguing about it on social media and I switched tactics, which was whenever one of those well-trodden FUDs would come up, I would just say “Oh yeah, really? How about you install a Zcash wallet and we’ll see.”.

The results have been spectacularly good! I don’t know how many minds I changed in years of arguing — probably a few but not many — but I have seen a high percentage of really positive responses from people who try a wallet. Here is a post I just made about this on twitter:

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I don’t think we need detailed analysis, just some well placed more appealing narratives. Don’t let FUD drive the discourse!

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Thanks for bringing this up!

I can’t imagine it’s unusual for a company that is fighting misinformation and/or competition to study it. Marketing strategy will dictate what we do. But I find it hard to imagine this hasn’t been discussed at ECC/Zfnd (pinging @zooko @Dodger).

Between NFTs and Media campaigns it feels like the concerted (education and) marketing effort is costing “Zcash” $100,000s and 1000s of hours. Let’s imagine just 20% of those interested in learning more visit r/ZEC, and let’s imagine 50% are instantly turned off by the fud. Our marketing campaign instantly lost 10% of its effectiveness. That’s $10,000s and 100s of hours worth of effort instantly lost.

Anecdotally we all know having good mods on social platforms, that have the time, are likely to better outcomes. To me it’s a no brainer that money and man hours should be spent on this problem.

Unfortunately @zooko I’m going to call you out…

“or if we should do anything”?

I’m only calling you out because you said it out loud. I’ve certainly had the same thought. This thought process increases the likelihood we accept this reality/fud as something we can’t control and don’t spend thought/effort to actively fight it. I encourage yourself and others to break this toxic thought process of accepting fud and abuse from other communities.

The first thing we might do is think of ways we can stop r/ZEC from basically being a recruiting ground for Monero maximalists. Mods are probably a good start. Should ECC, ZEC, and @ZcashGrants recruit mods for socials in the same way we do for the forums?

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A question for everyone to gauge community sentiment:

Should the Zcash Community Grants Committee consider funding a program similar to what Cardano has with its “Moderator Rewards”?

Moderator Rewards
Moderators keep our channels informative, friendly and constructive. Moderators have a good understanding of how each specific channel works since each medium has different rules and cadence. Moderators are visible and active daily. The basis of the rewards relies on a set of defined activities. If Moderators successfully meet these criteria, they are eligible to receive a reward of up to US$300 each month. A few of the responsibilities include:

  • Welcome new members;
  • Ensure adherence to the Code of Conduct within the channels;
  • Provide interesting information and answer questions;
  • Maintain discussions constructive and mutually beneficial;
  • Constantly communicate with other Moderators to discuss tactics, flag unethical behaviors and determine actions to take;
  • Regularly provide proof of work reports with activity logs from each channel to the Cardano Foundation’s Community Management Team.
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I hate to be blunt:
ZEC is a high-status coin/idea/community.
Monero is a low-status coin/idea/community.
It is best not to get mixed up with the crap.

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@aquietinvestor thank you! No question. Given the upcoming “Zcash Media” release I think this should be a priority. If we could announce it before any wider Zcash Media announcement would be good :slightly_smiling_face::+1:.

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“It is remarkable how a man cannot summarize his thoughts in even the most general sort of way without betraying himself completely, without putting his whole self into it, quite unawares, presenting as if in allegory the basic themes and problems of his life.”
That’s about how I see it

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Mods are probably a good start. Should ECC, ZEC, and @ZcashGrants recruit mods for socials in the same way we do for the forums?

If anyone with good Zcash history and standing would like to apply, please DM me.

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Has there been any progress adding moderators to r/zec subreddit?

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I think they also need to get rid of the existing mods. It makes no sense that the “Monero is Better than Zcash” thread is allowed to stay up, especially when you consider later comments by the OP of that thread. Either the mods are asleep, or worse. Comment by the OP:

"Actually this was just a test post to see how you all react under basic criticism and normal thoughts anyone slightly familiar with the crypto space would convey. I was posting about this issue, since ARBK only invests in Bitcoin and Zcash, and needed to know if Zcash was a trustworthy community.

Suffice to say, this is a fail from you guys, and this has ensured I won’t be investing further in ARBK. For ARBK to only invest in Bitcoin -a coin that has an inferior code to Bitcoin Cash, and Zcash -a coin that has an inferior reputation AND community to Monero, ARBK must not have good judgement.

Here is what this community would have done, for a passing grade:

  1. Upvoted this post to encourage criticism and comparison with other coins, especially one as similar as Monero.
  2. Top-voted a central explanation of the ups AND downs of Zcash in an educated respectful manner.
  3. Upvoted people from the Monero community who chimed in, to show you are open-minded to other points of view. This in turn would have led to potentially us switching over, WHICH YOU NEED if you want to grow as Monero is the predominant privacy coin as things stand.

In my opinion, you all have the ethics of a pump-and-dump community, given this response, as well as the quality of posts in this subreddit. I fully predict Zcash will not catch on, or if it does, it will eventually die in the long-term.

This is a final wake-up call to you all, on the off-chance you all aren’t a scam -fix your ethics, or your cryptocurrency is going to die, regardless of code quality.

Edit: This post suddenly went from 0 upvotes to like 40+ upvotes and a bunch of awards. Either someone reposted this or reverse psychology was just applied to my argument. Grateful regardless.

Let me get this straight, this user makes a trollish “test post,” claims the community didn’t upvote the thread when it’s literally the highest upvoted post in the subreddit, name drops monero, and says the community has the ethics of a pump and dump, and the mods do nothing. Are you sure these moderators have the best interest of the community in mind? Or are they just comically ineffective?

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How about enough analysis to know where “well-placed” is?

Let me get this straight, this user makes a trollish “test post,” claims the community didn’t upvote the thread when it’s literally the highest upvoted post in the subreddit, name drops monero, and says the community has the ethics of a pump and dump, and the mods do nothing. Are you sure these moderators have the best interest of the community in mind? Or are they just comically ineffective?

Those kind of threads are a part of a wider, organised, campaign not exclusive to /r/zec ( see I was told this forum is a censored mess ). It is always a balance between keeping it up or removing it. In this case @Shawn decided to keep it up. Saying that moderators are malicious just because of they decided on the side of letting a person speak his piece is uncalled for.

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I would agree with you about letting the man speak his piece if there was an argument or question in that thread made in good faith. When the user says the community didn’t, “upvoted this post,” despite it currently being at 59 upvotes when the next highest thread is only at 24, is he making an argument in good faith? Following this, when he says we have the ethics of a “pump and dump community,” what is the point he is trying to make? When he admits he created the thread to “test” the community with a title like Monero is better than Zcash and suggests ZEC is likely a scam, do you think he’s in the ZEC subreddit to discuss and learn? Why are we allowing someone who has literally admitted to spreading FUD speak his piece and advertise for a competing project in a subreddit dedicated to ZEC?

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I understand you are angry, but please direct that anger at the culprits, and not at mods who are trying to do a delicate balancing act between not sinking down to Monero’s level and not letting too much FUD through.

If you are the shits-and-giggles type, feel free to post this - How buying pot with Monero will get you busted — Knacc attack on Cryptonote coins | by Ryo Cryptocurrency | Medium or this https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/o2lqch/as_monero_reels_from_another_embezzlement_scandal/ in the fake “skepticism” thread that they have and measure how long it takes you to be banned (they never allow any meaningful criticism there). It would be interesting to see what @Rucknium has to say about that

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Part of the problem is probably the balance of users. And that probably is a chicken and egg problem.

Reddit works on voting. If there are more users of other communities voting on r/zec then the content will reflect that. I can’t imagine Zcash users/fans frequent Reddit very much and contribute with their vote.

I, as a user, will do what I can by frequenting r/zec more often and vote…

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I’ll resist the temptation to respond to this at length since it’s ultimately off topic. I’ll just say that it’s my opinion that you will likely not be banned for posting those links in the r/Monero Skepticism Sundays thread.

And I’ll say this: It would be better to raise the caliber of discussion on r/ZEC than to focus so much on removing FUD from there. r/ZEC does not look good right now. A big part of that is because most of the quality Zcash discussion happens here. Anyway, here are my recommendations:

  1. Shift price discussion to r/ZECtrader through a rule change. The interesting thing about Zcash is its tech and not its price. (FWIW r/Monero has done this).

  2. Ensure that Zcash developments like ECC announcements, Zcash Community Grants minutes and approved grants, etc. are posted there.

  3. Make Redditors aware of this Discourse forum, through a pinned post or something. Compared to other cryptocurrency communities, the Zcash community looks anemic on Reddit, but that’s mostly because the quality discussion happens here. I think Redditors interested in Zcash would be reassured if they saw the activity here.

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Friendly reminder that trolling is a violation of the forum Code of Conduct.

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You banned @make_xmr_great_again again just for agreeing with @rucknium that you should stop obsessing with Monero and instead make your subreddit prettier. Why not ban them both?

Everyone in Monero community thinks the moderation on this forum is a joke.